Se il radarista lavora con coscienza (i veronesi chiedano chi è Lucio Properzi, Papa Lima...) vede ogni cosa...
Brazilian plane missing in Amazon (Gol)
- Autore Discussione avroRJ
- Data d'inizio
Se il puntino e' anonimo non identifica nulla.
Infatti si diventa invisibili in quel senso. Non si scompare dalla faccia della terra o del radar ma, come hai precisato, si diventa un puntino senza nome.
[/quote]
Forse ho usato un termine poco appropriato... sostituisco allora "identifica" con "individua" la posizione: in tal caso a seconda dello spazio aereo in cui si trova, il primario di un aereo non identificato può/deve attivare procedure di allerta/informazione da parte del controllore.
Ricordo che la zona si trova al confine della copertura radar e suppongo che in questo caso l'individuazione su eco primario sia difficile o impossibile.
Pur impegnando tutta la coscienza di questo mondo, mi sembra difficile riaccendere un transponder...
Agenzia AFP di questo pomeriggio...grassetto mio.
----------------------------------------------------
Accident Boeing GOL: le jet Legacy n'a pas respecté son plan de vol
AFP 10.10.06 | 16h31
Les pilotes américains du jet d'affaires Legacy d'Embraer entré en collision avec un Boeing-737 de la compagnie brésilienne GOL qui s'est écrasé en Amazonie le 29 septembre tuant les 154 personnes à bord, n'ont pas respecté le plan de vol remis au décollage.
Le plan de vol remis au pilote Joseph Lepore et au co-pilote Jan Paul Paladino, prévoyait que le Legacy de la compagnie américaine ExcelAir vole à 37.000 pieds entre Sao José dos Campos (lieu du décollage dans l'Etat de Sao Paulo) et Brasilia, selon le commissaire Luciano Inacio da Silva, chargé de l'enquête de la police civile de l'Etat amazonien du Mato Grosso où est tombé le Boeing.
A partir de Brasilia, il devait descendre à 36.000 pieds, puis 480 km plus loin, entre Teres et Manaus (Etat d'Amazonas) il devait remonter à 38.000 pieds. "A l'endroit de la collision le Legacy aurait dû voler à 38.000 pieds", a souligné da Silva.
Or les pilotes ont dit dans leur témoignage à la police qu'ils "avaient l'autorisation de voler à 37.000 pieds", la même altitude que celle du Boeing qui venait en sens inverse.
"A partir de Brasilia, dans le plan vol remis par écrit et qu'ils n'ont pas respecté, les pilotes devaient voler à une altitude paire", a affirmé lundi soir le ministre brésilien de la Défense Valdir Pires.
Devant cette contradiction, le commissaire da Silva interrogera de nouveau les pilotes américains qui sont retenus à Rio de Janeiro depuis neuf jours, après que la police fédérale eut saisi leurs passeports. Il interrogera aussi les fonctionnaires de la tour de contrôle qui travaillaient le jour de l'accident.
Les pilotes américains ont par ailleurs affirmé avoir perdu le contact radio avec la tour de contrôle quelques minutes avant la collision.
Le président d'Infraeo, l'entreprise qui gère les aéroports brésiliens, le général José Carlos Pereira, a déclaré que les pilotes étaient obligés de suivre le plan de vol remis au décollage même s'ils ne pouvaient établir le contact avec le contrôle aérien : "Le pilote n'a pas le droit de changer le plan de vol de sa propre initiative", a-t-il dit.
Le général de l'armée de l'air a souligné qu'il n'y avait pas eu de panne dans le système de communication.
"Il est inacceptable de parler de faille de communication (avec les tours de contrôle de Brasilia ou Manaus). L'Aéronautique a fait tous les tests et n'a trouvé aucune faille", a-t-il dit à la presse.
Les pilotes américains n'ont pas de date fixée pour quitter le Brésil. Ils se trouveraient selon la presse à l'hôtel Marriot de Copacabana. La direction de l'hôtel a démenti, mais les employés ont confirmé à la presse que les Américains étaient dans l'hôtel et ne quittaient pas leur chambre même pour prendre leurs repas. Samedi, leurs épouses seraient arrivées des Etats-Unis.
Mardi, il restait encore aux équipes de secours à retrouver 11 corps (sur 154) dans les débris de l'avion, probablement coincés sous le fuselage, selon l'armée de l'air.
----------------------------------------------------
Accident Boeing GOL: le jet Legacy n'a pas respecté son plan de vol
AFP 10.10.06 | 16h31
Les pilotes américains du jet d'affaires Legacy d'Embraer entré en collision avec un Boeing-737 de la compagnie brésilienne GOL qui s'est écrasé en Amazonie le 29 septembre tuant les 154 personnes à bord, n'ont pas respecté le plan de vol remis au décollage.
Le plan de vol remis au pilote Joseph Lepore et au co-pilote Jan Paul Paladino, prévoyait que le Legacy de la compagnie américaine ExcelAir vole à 37.000 pieds entre Sao José dos Campos (lieu du décollage dans l'Etat de Sao Paulo) et Brasilia, selon le commissaire Luciano Inacio da Silva, chargé de l'enquête de la police civile de l'Etat amazonien du Mato Grosso où est tombé le Boeing.
A partir de Brasilia, il devait descendre à 36.000 pieds, puis 480 km plus loin, entre Teres et Manaus (Etat d'Amazonas) il devait remonter à 38.000 pieds. "A l'endroit de la collision le Legacy aurait dû voler à 38.000 pieds", a souligné da Silva.
Or les pilotes ont dit dans leur témoignage à la police qu'ils "avaient l'autorisation de voler à 37.000 pieds", la même altitude que celle du Boeing qui venait en sens inverse.
"A partir de Brasilia, dans le plan vol remis par écrit et qu'ils n'ont pas respecté, les pilotes devaient voler à une altitude paire", a affirmé lundi soir le ministre brésilien de la Défense Valdir Pires.
Devant cette contradiction, le commissaire da Silva interrogera de nouveau les pilotes américains qui sont retenus à Rio de Janeiro depuis neuf jours, après que la police fédérale eut saisi leurs passeports. Il interrogera aussi les fonctionnaires de la tour de contrôle qui travaillaient le jour de l'accident.
Les pilotes américains ont par ailleurs affirmé avoir perdu le contact radio avec la tour de contrôle quelques minutes avant la collision.
Le président d'Infraeo, l'entreprise qui gère les aéroports brésiliens, le général José Carlos Pereira, a déclaré que les pilotes étaient obligés de suivre le plan de vol remis au décollage même s'ils ne pouvaient établir le contact avec le contrôle aérien : "Le pilote n'a pas le droit de changer le plan de vol de sa propre initiative", a-t-il dit.
Le général de l'armée de l'air a souligné qu'il n'y avait pas eu de panne dans le système de communication.
"Il est inacceptable de parler de faille de communication (avec les tours de contrôle de Brasilia ou Manaus). L'Aéronautique a fait tous les tests et n'a trouvé aucune faille", a-t-il dit à la presse.
Les pilotes américains n'ont pas de date fixée pour quitter le Brésil. Ils se trouveraient selon la presse à l'hôtel Marriot de Copacabana. La direction de l'hôtel a démenti, mais les employés ont confirmé à la presse que les Américains étaient dans l'hôtel et ne quittaient pas leur chambre même pour prendre leurs repas. Samedi, leurs épouses seraient arrivées des Etats-Unis.
Mardi, il restait encore aux équipes de secours à retrouver 11 corps (sur 154) dans les débris de l'avion, probablement coincés sous le fuselage, selon l'armée de l'air.
Già....
Qualcuno (leggasi aggiano
) ha i piani dei due voli in questione? Mi piacerebbe visualizzare graficamente le due rotte, con tanto di cambio di quota.
Grazie!
Nicola
Qualcuno (leggasi aggiano
) ha i piani dei due voli in questione? Mi piacerebbe visualizzare graficamente le due rotte, con tanto di cambio di quota.Grazie!
Nicola
Segnalato su una ML
Dal sito del New York Times
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: November 3, 2006
RIO DE JANEIRO, Nov. 2 (AP) — The flight recorder transcript from the executive jet involved in Brazil’s worst air disaster shows that its American pilots were told by air traffic control to fly at the same altitude as a Boeing 737 before the planes apparently collided over the Amazon rain forest, a newspaper reported Thursday.
One of the pilots, Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, N.Y., was told by the tower in São José dos Campos to maintain an altitude of 37,000 feet as he flew the jet on Sept. 29 beyond Brasília, the capital, on a northwest path to Manaus, the newspaper Folha de S. Paulo quoted the transcript as saying.
That altitude contradicted the pilots’ filed flight plan as well as established norms, which reserve odd-numbered altitudes for southbound flights.
The lawyer representing the pilots, Roberto A. Torricella Jr., who is based in Miami, said last Friday that his clients were at their assigned altitude, despite a flight plan that specified a different altitude.
The Defense Ministry was not immediately able to confirm the report in the newspaper on Thursday, said a spokeswoman, Flavia de Oliveira. She said it would not have more information until air force officials return Monday from Canada, where black boxes from both planes were sent for analysis.
Folha, Brazil’s largest-circulation daily, did not say how it obtained the transcript. The air force, which oversees Brazil’s air traffic controllers, has not released it to the Brazilian federal police or to National Transportation Safety Board investigators.
After it apparently clipped the Embraer Legacy 600 executive jet, the larger plane, Gol Airlines Flight 1907, a Boeing 737, crashed into the Amazon jungle. All 154 people on board the larger plane were killed.
The Legacy’s pilots — employees of ExcelAire Service Inc. of Ronkonkoma, N.Y. — were flying the Brazilian-made jet on its maiden voyage back to New York, and managed to land the badly damaged jet safely. They have been ordered to stay in Brazil during the investigation. The second pilot is Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton, N.Y.
Mr. Torricella said Thursday that the Folha report supported the pilots’ testimony to investigators.
“As we’ve maintained from the beginning, the pilots were cleared to Manaus for flight at three-seven-zero at the time of departure, and we’re confident that anyone that is able to hear the tower tapes or see a transcript of the instructions issued by the São José tower will hear the exact same thing,” he said.
The tower instructions may have been the first of a series of problems that led to the crash. As the Legacy approached Brasília, the plane lost radio contact with the control tower. The Legacy’s transponder, which signals the plane’s location to the tower and other airplanes, also stopped working.
Just what caused the failures remains unclear, but from that point on, both the pilots and the air traffic controllers lacked critical information. Controllers had no way of knowing the smaller plane’s altitude.
Brazilian officials have insisted the Legacy should have returned to its original flight plan after losing contact with the control tower.
That plan would have mostly kept the smaller jet at 36,000 feet after Brasília, and out of the path of the 737, which was flying at its customary altitude of 37,000 feet.
Instead, both planes remained on a collision course.
But aviation experts say orders from air traffic controllers always take precedence over flight plans.
Permane, a mio parere, molta confusione su tutta la vicenda.
Dal sito del New York Times
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: November 3, 2006
RIO DE JANEIRO, Nov. 2 (AP) — The flight recorder transcript from the executive jet involved in Brazil’s worst air disaster shows that its American pilots were told by air traffic control to fly at the same altitude as a Boeing 737 before the planes apparently collided over the Amazon rain forest, a newspaper reported Thursday.
One of the pilots, Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, N.Y., was told by the tower in São José dos Campos to maintain an altitude of 37,000 feet as he flew the jet on Sept. 29 beyond Brasília, the capital, on a northwest path to Manaus, the newspaper Folha de S. Paulo quoted the transcript as saying.
That altitude contradicted the pilots’ filed flight plan as well as established norms, which reserve odd-numbered altitudes for southbound flights.
The lawyer representing the pilots, Roberto A. Torricella Jr., who is based in Miami, said last Friday that his clients were at their assigned altitude, despite a flight plan that specified a different altitude.
The Defense Ministry was not immediately able to confirm the report in the newspaper on Thursday, said a spokeswoman, Flavia de Oliveira. She said it would not have more information until air force officials return Monday from Canada, where black boxes from both planes were sent for analysis.
Folha, Brazil’s largest-circulation daily, did not say how it obtained the transcript. The air force, which oversees Brazil’s air traffic controllers, has not released it to the Brazilian federal police or to National Transportation Safety Board investigators.
After it apparently clipped the Embraer Legacy 600 executive jet, the larger plane, Gol Airlines Flight 1907, a Boeing 737, crashed into the Amazon jungle. All 154 people on board the larger plane were killed.
The Legacy’s pilots — employees of ExcelAire Service Inc. of Ronkonkoma, N.Y. — were flying the Brazilian-made jet on its maiden voyage back to New York, and managed to land the badly damaged jet safely. They have been ordered to stay in Brazil during the investigation. The second pilot is Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton, N.Y.
Mr. Torricella said Thursday that the Folha report supported the pilots’ testimony to investigators.
“As we’ve maintained from the beginning, the pilots were cleared to Manaus for flight at three-seven-zero at the time of departure, and we’re confident that anyone that is able to hear the tower tapes or see a transcript of the instructions issued by the São José tower will hear the exact same thing,” he said.
The tower instructions may have been the first of a series of problems that led to the crash. As the Legacy approached Brasília, the plane lost radio contact with the control tower. The Legacy’s transponder, which signals the plane’s location to the tower and other airplanes, also stopped working.
Just what caused the failures remains unclear, but from that point on, both the pilots and the air traffic controllers lacked critical information. Controllers had no way of knowing the smaller plane’s altitude.
Brazilian officials have insisted the Legacy should have returned to its original flight plan after losing contact with the control tower.
That plan would have mostly kept the smaller jet at 36,000 feet after Brasília, and out of the path of the 737, which was flying at its customary altitude of 37,000 feet.
Instead, both planes remained on a collision course.
But aviation experts say orders from air traffic controllers always take precedence over flight plans.
Permane, a mio parere, molta confusione su tutta la vicenda.
News interessanti in questo documento rilasciato da IFATCA, la piu' importante organizzazione che rappresenta i controllori del volo a livello mondiale.
http://www.ifatca.org/press/251106.pdf
Parrebbe piuttosto chiaro ormai che ne' i piloti ne' gli ATC in servizio possano davvero essere chiamati come soli responsabili del disastro.
RIP ai 154 caduti a causa di HMI (human/machine interface) fatte con i piedi... se i produttori di software ascoltassero di piu' gli utenti queste cose non si verificherebbero!
Ciao, Luca
http://www.ifatca.org/press/251106.pdf
Parrebbe piuttosto chiaro ormai che ne' i piloti ne' gli ATC in servizio possano davvero essere chiamati come soli responsabili del disastro.
RIP ai 154 caduti a causa di HMI (human/machine interface) fatte con i piedi... se i produttori di software ascoltassero di piu' gli utenti queste cose non si verificherebbero!
Ciao, Luca
Brazil feds to question pilots
The Long Island pilots detained in Brazil since they were involved in a midair collision almost two months ago are expected to be questioned soon by the federal police handling a criminal investigation, while the aviators wait for an appellate court to hear their motion seeking the return of their passports.
Meanwhile, a Brazilian newspaper reported that the air traffic controller who was monitoring the Embraer Legacy executive jet flown by Joseph Lepore of Bay Shore and Jan Paladino of Westhampton Beach was new in his position and was considered unqualified by his instructor. It was also reported that Gol airlines Flight 1907, which crashed with the loss of all 154 aboard after the collision at 37,000 feet, normally flew at 41,000 feet for its route southeasterly from Manaus. But the flight plan for the plane that day specified 37,000 feet, which is also normally reserved for flights going that direction.
The families of the American pilots flew to Rio de Janeiro this week to stay with them for the holiday at the hotel where they have been in self-imposed seclusion since the crash. Ellen Lepore and her 8-year-old son, Michael, and 3-year-old daughter, Nicole, made the trip with Melissa Paladino. It was the second trip for the wives and the first for the Lepore children.
The visit followed last week's refusal by a federal judge in Mato Grosso State to reconsider his decision made after the crash to confiscate the pilots' passports. Lawyers for ExcelAire of Ronkonkoma then filed a habeas corpus appeal with a federal appeals court. While the head of that panel declined to overturn the lower court ruling on his own, the full court will hear the case, possibly next week.
Brazilian newspaper O Folha de San Paulo reported that the controller monitoring the Legacy on Sept. 29 was rushed into the position at the insistence of military officials, who run the control system, over the objection of his instructor. Other controllers told the paper that the controller had little hands-on experience after receiving his certification earlier this year because of a lack of controllers.
There are civil and criminal investigations of the collision going on in Brazil. The federal police are doing the criminal probe and authorities have said the American pilots could face involuntary manslaughter charges if found to have caused the impact. International flight safety organizations have protested the criminal investigation, saying that international law calls for accident studies to be done by civil authorities.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-liair1125,0,5460388.story?t
The Long Island pilots detained in Brazil since they were involved in a midair collision almost two months ago are expected to be questioned soon by the federal police handling a criminal investigation, while the aviators wait for an appellate court to hear their motion seeking the return of their passports.
Meanwhile, a Brazilian newspaper reported that the air traffic controller who was monitoring the Embraer Legacy executive jet flown by Joseph Lepore of Bay Shore and Jan Paladino of Westhampton Beach was new in his position and was considered unqualified by his instructor. It was also reported that Gol airlines Flight 1907, which crashed with the loss of all 154 aboard after the collision at 37,000 feet, normally flew at 41,000 feet for its route southeasterly from Manaus. But the flight plan for the plane that day specified 37,000 feet, which is also normally reserved for flights going that direction.
The families of the American pilots flew to Rio de Janeiro this week to stay with them for the holiday at the hotel where they have been in self-imposed seclusion since the crash. Ellen Lepore and her 8-year-old son, Michael, and 3-year-old daughter, Nicole, made the trip with Melissa Paladino. It was the second trip for the wives and the first for the Lepore children.
The visit followed last week's refusal by a federal judge in Mato Grosso State to reconsider his decision made after the crash to confiscate the pilots' passports. Lawyers for ExcelAire of Ronkonkoma then filed a habeas corpus appeal with a federal appeals court. While the head of that panel declined to overturn the lower court ruling on his own, the full court will hear the case, possibly next week.
Brazilian newspaper O Folha de San Paulo reported that the controller monitoring the Legacy on Sept. 29 was rushed into the position at the insistence of military officials, who run the control system, over the objection of his instructor. Other controllers told the paper that the controller had little hands-on experience after receiving his certification earlier this year because of a lack of controllers.
There are civil and criminal investigations of the collision going on in Brazil. The federal police are doing the criminal probe and authorities have said the American pilots could face involuntary manslaughter charges if found to have caused the impact. International flight safety organizations have protested the criminal investigation, saying that international law calls for accident studies to be done by civil authorities.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-liair1125,0,5460388.story?t
Mamma mia Luca, c'è da rabbrividire a pensare che ambedue i sistemi identificati come co-responsabili dell'incidente (il radar brasiliano e il transponder allegro del Legacy) sono ancora in uso!
Nicola
eh gia', e come al solito questo genere di incidenti capitano quando ci sono una serie di elementi che impediscono di vedere una "bandiera rossa" che faccia rompere la catena degli eventi.Citazione:Messaggio inserito da Nicola_LIMF
Mamma mia Luca, c'è da rabbrividire a pensare che ambedue i sistemi identificati come co-responsabili dell'incidente (il radar brasiliano e il transponder allegro del Legacy) sono ancora in uso!
Il transponder andato in standby, il silenzio radio prolungato, il cambio di turno dell'ATC, l'ATC poco addestrato che vede lo schermo, legge 360 (quando l'aereo era invece a 370 ma *senza* transponder attivo)... cosi' perdono la vita 154 persone, ahinoi...
Ciao, Luca
P.S. Se qualcuno volesse andare in dettagli approfonditi sul tema N600XL-GLO1907, consiglio caldamente questo lungo thread su PPRuNe.org:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246031
Da AvWeb:
December 7, 2006
Brazil Allowing U.S. Pilots To Return Home
By Mary Grady, Contributing Editor
The two U.S. pilots who have been held in Rio de Janeiro since a fatal midair collision in September will be allowed to go home, a Brazilian court said today. The pilots -- Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino, both of New York -- will have their passports returned to them and can leave the country in 72 hours, after being further debriefed by police, the court said. The two must agree to return to Brazil for any further inquiry and judicial action. "Restricting the freedom of movement for foreigners is not backed by the domestic legal system," the court's statement said, according to Reuters. Brazil is still investigating the crash, which was the worst in the country's history. The pilots were flying an Embraer Legacy jet above the Amazon on Sept. 29 when it collided with a Gol Airlines Boeing 737-800. All 154 people on board the 737 were killed. The Legacy made a safe emergency landing with all seven people aboard unharmed. Public opinion in Brazil seems to be shifting away from blaming the pilots to focus on concerns with air traffic control, Reuters said.
December 7, 2006
Brazil Allowing U.S. Pilots To Return Home
By Mary Grady, Contributing Editor
The two U.S. pilots who have been held in Rio de Janeiro since a fatal midair collision in September will be allowed to go home, a Brazilian court said today. The pilots -- Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino, both of New York -- will have their passports returned to them and can leave the country in 72 hours, after being further debriefed by police, the court said. The two must agree to return to Brazil for any further inquiry and judicial action. "Restricting the freedom of movement for foreigners is not backed by the domestic legal system," the court's statement said, according to Reuters. Brazil is still investigating the crash, which was the worst in the country's history. The pilots were flying an Embraer Legacy jet above the Amazon on Sept. 29 when it collided with a Gol Airlines Boeing 737-800. All 154 people on board the 737 were killed. The Legacy made a safe emergency landing with all seven people aboard unharmed. Public opinion in Brazil seems to be shifting away from blaming the pilots to focus on concerns with air traffic control, Reuters said.
Brazil Court Orders Release of Passports to U.S. Pilots
A Federal Court in Brazil today ordered the release of the passports of the two U.S. pilots of the Embraer Legacy 600 involved in the September 29 collision with a Gol Airlines 737 over the Amazon. The Federal Regional Court of the First Region of Brazil said that it had unanimously agreed to return the passports of Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, N.Y., and Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton Beach, N.Y. effective in 72 hours. All 154 people on board the Gol flight were killed, while none of the seven people on board the Legacy was injured. The new corporate jet was on a delivery flight to the headquarters of its buyer, charter operator ExcelAire of Ronkonkoma, N.Y., when the midair occurred. Investigators continue to study the accident to determine cause and assign blame. ExcelAire’s lawyers in Brazil said in a statement that the decision “corrects the discriminatory effect of the passport seizure and travel restrictions.” The lawyers also said that the pilots “will continue to cooperate with the investigation"
A Federal Court in Brazil today ordered the release of the passports of the two U.S. pilots of the Embraer Legacy 600 involved in the September 29 collision with a Gol Airlines 737 over the Amazon. The Federal Regional Court of the First Region of Brazil said that it had unanimously agreed to return the passports of Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, N.Y., and Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton Beach, N.Y. effective in 72 hours. All 154 people on board the Gol flight were killed, while none of the seven people on board the Legacy was injured. The new corporate jet was on a delivery flight to the headquarters of its buyer, charter operator ExcelAire of Ronkonkoma, N.Y., when the midair occurred. Investigators continue to study the accident to determine cause and assign blame. ExcelAire’s lawyers in Brazil said in a statement that the decision “corrects the discriminatory effect of the passport seizure and travel restrictions.” The lawyers also said that the pilots “will continue to cooperate with the investigation"