Ritardo per il 787


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6 Novembre 2005
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bel paese là dove 'l sì suona
Qantas expecting additional six-month delay for 787

Thursday October 30, 2008
As the strike by the International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers appeared to be concluding, Boeing's largest airline customer for the 787, Qantas Group, confirmed that its first Dreamliner could be up to an additional six months late.

Jetstar Airways executives told ATWOnline this week that the LCC's first 787 is not expected until May 2010, 21 months later than the original schedule. A spokesperson added, "Based on what we have been told, we are working on contingencies and planning for a further three-to-six-month delay in our delivery, although Boeing is yet to formally confirm that." The lag is far longer than the 54-day IAM strike and confirms ATWOnline's report last month that there has been further slippage in the program, possibly due to brake control issues.

Jetstar and Qantas have ordered 65 787s, with the original schedule calling for the first 15 to arrive one per month at Jetstar from August 2008. When Boeing announced its third program delay last April, Jetstar's first delivery, ship 21, had slipped 15 months to November 2009.

The manufacturer encountered power supply and brake software problems early this year, and while the power issues were resolved in time for the June power-on goal , the software problems lingered until last month, Boeing insiders say. The brake control monitoring system is supplied by Crane Aerospace to GE Aviation Systems. A GE spokesperson told ATWOnline this month that "there are [now] no outstanding issues," and added last week that the software is "running well. The brake control monitoring system hardware for the test aircraft has been completed as well."

First flight, and thus first delivery, have been complicated and delayed further by the machinist strike. IAM members are scheduled to vote Saturday on the tentative four-year agreement reached Monday evening. If the deal is ratified, workers may return to work as early as Sunday night.
Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Jim McNerney said last week in a teleconference that the 787 was "on schedule" for a fourth-quarter test flight "pre-strike." He said the supply chain "largely healed up" and had caught up before IAM walked out on Sept. 6.

But ongoing production problems have delayed the planned ramp-up as well as first flight and delivery, with some delivery delays stretching to two years. Launch customer ANA confirmed last month that the ambitious production ramp-up schedule will not be achieved. It suggested that its first aircraft would arrive next August, but that now appears to have slipped to early 2010.

by Geoffrey Thomas
ATWOnline
 
Questo dimostra che è sembre bene tacere... ma quando si deve vendere, purtroppo si specula. Airbus non credo se la rida, visto l'A380 e visto che, tra qualche anno, dovrà vedersela con le consegne dell'A350.
 
Solo sei mesi???
con 2 mesi di sciopero, ancora in atto, mi sembra un pbel po' poco sinceramente, secondo me almeno un anno, sara' moolto difficile gia'che voli quest'anno...
 
Dicono che il ritardo sia equivalente al numero di giorni di sciopero. Dubito veramente che un giorno di sciopero poi porti ad un giorno di ritardo, ma questo, per bisogna dare atto, è colpa di Boeing e non del programma 787.
 
A350XWB ha detto:
Dicono che il ritardo sia equivalente al numero di giorni di sciopero. Dubito veramente che un giorno di sciopero poi porti ad un giorno di ritardo, ma questo, per bisogna dare atto, è colpa di Boeing e non del programma 787.
Clicca per espandere...

Non penso proppio. Fino a ieri stavano consegnando. Fonti interne. Ero la lunedi
Poi qui si parla di ritardi del aereo piu rinomato al mondo sempre. Penso che sia normale
Lo sciopero un po incide ma non cosi tanto perche il lavoro e quasi tutto subcontracting
Poi si capisce la differenza tra B787 e A380. Il primo ha presso 1000 ordini , il secondo non ce la fa arrivare a 200. Un motivo ci sara, o no?
 
dreamliner ha detto:
Non penso proppio. Fino a ieri stavano consegnando. Fonti interne. Ero la lunedi
Poi qui si parla di ritardi del aereo piu rinomato al mondo sempre. Penso che sia normale
Lo sciopero un po incide ma non cosi tanto perche il lavoro e quasi tutto subcontracting
Poi si capisce la differenza tra B787 e A380. Il primo ha presso 1000 ordini , il secondo non ce la fa arrivare a 200. Un motivo ci sara, o no?
Clicca per espandere...
Il costo?:D
Comunque la capienza dei due aeroplani è ben diversa.E'molto più difficile vendere un 380 di un 787!
 
dreamliner ha detto:
Non penso proppio. Fino a ieri stavano consegnando. Fonti interne. Ero la lunedi
Poi qui si parla di ritardi del aereo piu rinomato al mondo sempre. Penso che sia normale
Lo sciopero un po incide ma non cosi tanto perche il lavoro e quasi tutto subcontracting
Poi si capisce la differenza tra B787 e A380. Il primo ha presso 1000 ordini , il secondo non ce la fa arrivare a 200. Un motivo ci sara, o no?
Clicca per espandere...

Ciao Dreamliner
io non farei paragoni sono programmi molto diversi con utilizzi diversi, costi diversi , prezzi diversi e linee di produzione diverse.
Non ha nessun senso fare paragoni , come tutti i programmi aeronautici,ha un certo ritardo e molto probabilmente sara' un gran successo anche perche come ben sapete non e' che nel nostro settore ci sia gran concorrenza..., ci vorra' tempo.
con la crisi in cui siamo, nessuno a fretta oggi, domani vedremo...
P.s.il backlog del 380 ha superato i 200 da un po. cmq...
Un saluto
MF
 
L'A380 e il 787 lavorano su mercati e target completamente diversi. E' il motivo per cui Boeing non continuò nel programma congiunto A3XX: non credeva nei superjumbo dai grandi hub ma nel point to point con aerei più piccoli e da un maggior numero di aeroporti. Se il pensiero è questo, la risposta alla differenza di ordini è tutta lì!
Comunque, tornando al ritardo, pur essendo un fan Airbus, credo che il 787, una volta a regime, possa rivoluzionare l'aviazione. Ma così facendo, si gioca tutto l'effetto "innovazione" che l'aveva circondato.
 
Boeing tells SPEEA future planes will involve less outsourcing
Boeing tells SPEEA engineers the company plans less outsourcing on future airplanes, including the next 787 Dreamliner model.

Boeing is planning less outsourcing of design work for its future airplanes — and even for an upcoming derivative of the 787 Dreamliner, the top technical executive at Boeing Commercial Airplanes said Wednesday.

Vice president of engineering Mike Denton's comments appeared aimed at reassuring Boeing's white-collar work force about its future, as contract negotiations between the company and the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) continued for a second day — and hit a small snag.

"We have learned as a management team from the lessons of the 787-8," Denton said. "We will do more of the detailed design on the 787-9 than we did on the 787-8. We're working out those details with some of our affected partners now."

The 787-8 is the much-delayed initial model of the Dreamliner. The 787-9, the largest of three planned versions of the airplane, is now in preliminary design.

Denton's remarks drew a cautiously positive response from SPEEA executive director Ray Goforth, reached on his way to the Thursday afternoon contract-negotiating session.

"It's a question of who is the 'we,' " Goforth said. "If the 'we' means Boeing, does it mean Boeing Moscow? Does it mean Boeing India?

"These are unanswered questions," and SPEEA would like more details, he said.

"But in general, this is a helpful sign that the company is addressing the concerns raised by the technical work force," Goforth added. "I think Mike is genuine in what he is saying."

Denton made his comments in an audio blog at the Web site Boeing has set up for its negotiations with SPEEA.

The site is designed to reach out to SPEEA members, and the blog posting went up on the day that main table talks began at a SeaTac hotel. Denton is a key member of the Boeing negotiating team in those talks.

The outsourcing of the design work on the 787 has been a major concern for many Boeing engineers worried that the plane maker is giving away its technical know-how to future competitors. Goforth has made outsourcing a top issue in the contract negotiations.

Denton, citing the need for a "course correction" due to all the problems in getting the 787-8 built, indicated that Boeing's technical leadership has got the message.

His recorded comments also expanded on a recent statement that the globalized-partner model used on the 787 will be modified for the next new Boeing airplane — likely a replacement for the Renton-built single-aisle 737, expected to enter service around 2018 or 2020.

On the 787, major partners designed and manufactured complete sections of the Dreamliner.

For example, the composite plastic 787 wings are made by Mitsubishi in Japan. Boeing provided to the Japanese the "engineering architecture" of the wings — the overall concept, shape and technical parameters. The Japanese then did all the detailed design, including the internal structure of the wing.

The only major structural part of the 787 designed and built in the Puget Sound region was the tailfin, produced in Frederickson near Tacoma.

In an interview earlier this month, Denton said Boeing will likely keep "some part of major production" of the next airplane: "Whether it's all of a wing, or all of the fuselage, or some [other] part of production — all of that is to be figured out," he said.

In Wednesday's blog directed at the engineers, he said that "we will probably do more of the design and even some of the major production for the next new airplane ourselves, as opposed to having it all out with the partners."

Denton said nothing about where the next plane will be built, however.

Goforth said that during "very healthy" discussions in the opening bargaining sessions on Wednesday, Denton made the same points.

Goforth said the company's position is that it has to use all the resources available now — engineers at Boeing's foreign subsidiaries and at its major partners; as well as in-house, nonunion contract engineers — to overcome the rash of problems it's having on the 787, the 747-8 and a couple of military programs.

He said Boeing officials suggest that once those problems are under control, the company can "settle down to a work-force balance that will please our members."

But the union members worry that using non-SPEEA engineers to solve the short-term problems risks "undermining the long-term viability of the company," Goforth said.

Despite the positive early discussion, negotiations quickly turned sour in the Thursday afternoon bargaining session, which was supposed to last two hours.

When Boeing gave a flat no to three SPEEA proposals on employee leave, including a request for a holiday on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the union negotiators walked out after just 30 minutes.

SPEEA spokesman Bill Dugovich said the union will return to the talks this morning.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008333044_boeing31.html
 
Praticamente facendo così hanno completamente sconfessato la politica dell'outosurcing che doveva essere l'arma vincente del 787!!!
E' una sconfitta per Boeing che puntava molto su questo. Si può credere di essere solo gli "architetti" di un velivolo, ma non c'è molto da fare, il grosso del lavoro deve essere fatto dalla casa madre.
 
787: niente consegne fino al 2010; lo schedule scivola ulteriormente

Bernstein: No 787s until 2010; schedule slips further

Monday November 3, 2008
Boeing's ambitious plans to ramp up 787 deliveries may be under serious threat, according to forecasts from New York-based Bernstein Research.

In a wrap-up following the manufacturer's third-quarter earnings teleconference, Bernstein warned that 787 deliveries may be a further 53 short of plans in the first four years of production (2009-12) and 153 short of plans from last January.

This report was Bernstein's fourth reassessment of 787 production capability this year. After the January delay announcement that pushed first delivery to ANA to early 2009, Bernstein revised its delivery schedule for 2009-12 to 335 aircraft comprising 41 in 2009, 71 in 2010, 103 in 2011 and 120 in 2012.

When Boeing announced a second delay in April with first delivery to ANA in the 2009 third quarter, Bernstein pushed the delivery schedule out two quarters with a reduction of 18 aircraft to 317 for the four-year period. However, following a June investor update from 787 Program VP and GM Pat Shanahan, it cut its 2009-12 delivery forecast by 89 to 236--25 in 2009, 38 in 2010, 70 in 2011 and 103 in 2012.

Prior to the September strike by the International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, ATWOnline reported a further slippage in first delivery to 2010 independent of the work stoppage's effect. Boeing and IAM reached a tentative labor agreement last week and Qantas Group executives confirmed that their first Dreamliner (ship 21) may not arrive until May 2010, up to an additional six months late (ATWOnline, Oct. 30).

In Bernstein's Oct. 30 client note, it confirmed QF's fears and forecast that Boeing will deliver no 787s next year, only 41 in 2010, then 55 in 2011 and 87 in 2012--a slippage of 53.

In the past 12 months, the manufacturer has been a Bernstein client and has paid the firm for noninvestment banking securities-related services. An affiliate of Bernstein received compensation from Boeing.


by Geoffrey Thomas
ATWOnline
 
Ultima modifica da un moderatore:
B787, un nuovo ritardo

Strike delays Boeing 787 launch

The delays had been expected as a result of the strike
Boeing has delayed the first flight of its 787 Dreamliner aircraft until 2009, having previously aimed to get it off the ground before the end of 2008.

It is the fifth substantial delay to the Dreamliner's first flight, which was originally planned for summer 2007.

Boeing has blamed the delay on a 58-day machinists' strike, which finally ended on Sunday.

It also blamed a problem with the installation of the fasteners that hold the aircraft together.

A company spokesman said that inspections had found that about 3% of the fasteners on the four test jets had been incorrectly installed by suppliers, being either too far apart or too close together.

Two years late

A new launch timetable will be announced once the problems have been fully assessed.

The project has been plagued by delays due to problems with suppliers and shortages of parts.

Some airlines have been told they will have to wait two years longer for their aircraft than had originally been promised.

The Dreamliner is a key plank of Boeing's strategy and is the first airliner to be made from a mixture of carbon fibre and plastic.

The materials make it lighter and more fuel-efficient than other aircraft, and allows it to travel further without refuelling.





BBC
 
787 first flight date now officially up in the air

Wednesday November 5, 2008
Boeing confirmed that the 787 will not fly in 2008, although it is blaming the recently concluded machinists strike and not software troubles or newly surfaced fastener issues for the latest delay.
"Given the duration of the [International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers] work stoppage, first flight of the 787 will not be accomplished in the fourth quarter of 2008," a Boeing spokesperson said. "The timeframe for first flight has not been established and will be based on the strike recovery assessment. The program is working to determine a new program schedule that will be announced when it is finalized."
The 58-day strike concluded last weekend and many machinists required 3-4-day recertification for some tasks, thus delaying full production for several weeks.
On Monday, Boeing told ATWOnline that several fasteners had been installed incorrectly on 787s in Everett Final Assembly. That revelation followed reports from both customers and analysts that production and delivery schedules were slipping.
While the delays will keep the 787 earthbound until next year, certification work has continued. In September 2007, when announcing the program's first delay, then-787 Program VP and GM Mike Bair claimed that the company could increase flight test hr. to 120 per month for each of the six test aircraft compared to the typical 80 on previous programs. He said at the time that Boeing could have the aircraft certified just five months after first flight.
In May, new VP and GM Pat Shanahan told media that 80% of the required certification work did not involve the actual airframe, and at that time half of that 80% was complete. Boeing insiders suggest that when all the 787's supply chain problems are fixed and the aircraft are turned over to the company's flight test engineers, "we may see a stunning turnaround" in the program.

by Geoffrey Thomas
ATWOnline
 
E' anche peggio di quanto si possa immaginare...

Da Flightglobal.com

Boeing delays 787 first flight and battles fastener issue

Citing the extended work stoppage of the 57-day machinists' strike, Boeing says the 787 will not accomplish its goal of flying by the end of the fourth quarter of 2008.
Boeing adds that it will not set a new target date for first flight or first delivery while a full assessment of the programme's post-strike status remains ongoing.
Included in the assessment is a costly manufacturing error. Boeing acknowledges a need to reinstall slightly less than 3% of all fasteners throughout its production system.
Boeing's last schedule called for delivering the first 787 to launch customers All Nippon Airways in the third quarter of 2009.
This latest delay is the fifth slip for the first flight of Dreamliner One since September 2007, and suggests the event could occur almost two years after the original schedule target.
The fastener fix covers about about two dozen shipsets spread all over the world, which include the four flight test and two ground test aircraft currently in Everett, Washington.
"The issue is with installation of the fasteners, not the fasteners themselves,'' Boeing says.
As a result, the company is conducting a root cause analysis to determine the exact source of the problem. A preliminary examination indicates that unclear specifications for the fasteners resulted in misinterpretations at the time of installation.
The airframer is reworking those specifications and supplying the workforce in both Everett and the partner base with additional training to ensure this problem does not repeat itself.
Boeing is "not aware" of any other installation issues on the aircraft that would require a reassessment.
The company emphasizes that the 787 programme's quality control system caught this problem before any non-conforming parts were allowed to fly.
Boeing says the problem was discovered two weeks ago during a scheduled inspection of the airframe undergoing static testing in Building 40-23 at the Everett facility. As a result of the findings on the static airframe, Boeing began randomly sampling fasteners across the other flight test aircraft and found the problem to be widespread.
Of those 3% of fasteners, many are either too short or too long. This leads to small gaps beneath the head of the fastener, a design non-conformance requiring reinstallation.
Although the exact number of fasteners requiring reinstallation was not disclosed, Boeing has said that the 787 uses 80% fewer fasteners than an aluminium aircraft of equivalent size. The 767, slightly smaller than the 787, has roughly 1.8 million fasteners per aircraft. This estimate could place the number of required fastener reinstallations in the thousands across the programme.
Boeing emphasizes that no improperly-installed fasteners will travel from supplier partners to Everett, minimizing the additional traveled work.
 
Alenia & 787

Da fonti interne ad Alenia.. sembrebbe che a causa di problemi di progettazione e conseguente mancata fornitura dal partner giapponese di alcune componenti del 787 il gruppo di lavoro impiegato sul progetto (Pomigliano) sia attualmente impiegato sul altri progetti... si vocifera che se per l'inizio dell'anno le cose non cambino Alenia prevede la cassa integrazione...

Sembrerebbe quindi che i tempi di rollout del 787 si allunghino ulteriormente...
 
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