Incidente A330 Air France Rio-Parigi 01/06/2009
- Autore Discussione Edo75
- Data d'inizio
Il mancato coordinamento va bene.. ma quello che inquieta è un altro aspetto.
Se alle 2,10 l'ACARS mandava segnali, ma l'ultimo contatto è della 1,35, cosa diavolo è successo in quei 35 minuti da non poter lanciare un piccione viaggiatore, un segnale di fumo, qualsiasi straccio di mezzo per comunicare?
è di questo che non mi faccio una ragione, poi, per carità se i brasiliani dormivano, è un altro discorso...
Se alle 2,10 l'ACARS mandava segnali, ma l'ultimo contatto è della 1,35, cosa diavolo è successo in quei 35 minuti da non poter lanciare un piccione viaggiatore, un segnale di fumo, qualsiasi straccio di mezzo per comunicare?
è di questo che non mi faccio una ragione, poi, per carità se i brasiliani dormivano, è un altro discorso...
sta storia dei pitot...........che noia!!!
il pitot nella catena che poi porta a raffigurare la velocità:
1- Pitot;
2- Air Data Module, converte il segnale analogico in digitale;
3- ADIRU, Air Data and Inertial Reference Unit, il computer che processa il segnale proveniente dal ADM;
è il componenete più stupido, nel 99% dei casi si sostituisce il pitot, perchè si rompe il sistema di riscaldamento al suo interno, in 25 anni non ho mai cambiato un pitot perchè "leggeva male"
il pitot nella catena che poi porta a raffigurare la velocità:
1- Pitot;
2- Air Data Module, converte il segnale analogico in digitale;
3- ADIRU, Air Data and Inertial Reference Unit, il computer che processa il segnale proveniente dal ADM;
è il componenete più stupido, nel 99% dei casi si sostituisce il pitot, perchè si rompe il sistema di riscaldamento al suo interno, in 25 anni non ho mai cambiato un pitot perchè "leggeva male"
quoto. davvero inquietante..basta pensare ai jump seat degli av ritrovati con le cinture non allacciate, all'improvviso non hanno avuto il minimo tempo di fare niente
DATE:20/08/09
SOURCE:Air Transport Intelligence news
Search team consider options for broadening AF447 hunt
By David Kaminski-Morrow
French investigators are to consider options for expanding the search for the flight recorders of Air France flight AF447 after ending a second phase of undersea operations.
Search teams in the South Atlantic have completed stages designated Phase 1A and 1B in the hunt for the cockpit-voice and flight-data recorders of the Airbus A330 lost on 1 June.
France's Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses says the search, undertaken in co-operation with oceanographic institute IFREMER and hydrographic service SHOM, has focused on a 75km-radius circle around the aircraft's last known position.
The BEA says that the search "did not make it possible to locate the aircraft wreckage".
It says it will draw a team of investigators together over the next few weeks to analyse data retrieved so far "with a view to a third search phase". BEA says it will determine "requirements and means" to proceed.
Airbus has already indicated a willingness to provide funding to extend the sonar search.
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...nsider-options-for-broadening-af447-hunt.html
SOURCE:Air Transport Intelligence news
Search team consider options for broadening AF447 hunt
By David Kaminski-Morrow
French investigators are to consider options for expanding the search for the flight recorders of Air France flight AF447 after ending a second phase of undersea operations.
Search teams in the South Atlantic have completed stages designated Phase 1A and 1B in the hunt for the cockpit-voice and flight-data recorders of the Airbus A330 lost on 1 June.
France's Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses says the search, undertaken in co-operation with oceanographic institute IFREMER and hydrographic service SHOM, has focused on a 75km-radius circle around the aircraft's last known position.
The BEA says that the search "did not make it possible to locate the aircraft wreckage".
It says it will draw a team of investigators together over the next few weeks to analyse data retrieved so far "with a view to a third search phase". BEA says it will determine "requirements and means" to proceed.
Airbus has already indicated a willingness to provide funding to extend the sonar search.
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...nsider-options-for-broadening-af447-hunt.html
Da TTG:
31/08/2009 15.52
A330 Air France: una task force per il recupero del relitto
La Francia ha lanciato un appello ai Governi mondiali al fine di creare una vera e propria task force internazionale finalizzata al recupero dell'aereo Air France nell'Oceano. L'A330 che collegava Rio con Parigi si era inabissato la scorsa primavera e a nulla erano valsi i tentativi di recupero delle scatole nere, mentre i rottami sin qui individuati sono insufficienti per fare luce sulle cause del disastro. Nella task force dovrebbe entrare anche la stessa Airbus.
31/08/2009 15.52
A330 Air France: una task force per il recupero del relitto
La Francia ha lanciato un appello ai Governi mondiali al fine di creare una vera e propria task force internazionale finalizzata al recupero dell'aereo Air France nell'Oceano. L'A330 che collegava Rio con Parigi si era inabissato la scorsa primavera e a nulla erano valsi i tentativi di recupero delle scatole nere, mentre i rottami sin qui individuati sono insufficienti per fare luce sulle cause del disastro. Nella task force dovrebbe entrare anche la stessa Airbus.
Io spero che un giorno si faccia piena luce sulle cause del disastro e mi fa piacere che in questo forum si tenga viva l'attenzione per questa tragedia ancora purtroppo inspiegabile.
Grazie a coloro i quali postano informazioni!!
Grazie a coloro i quali postano informazioni!!
BEA 'can't explain' AF accident, needs millions for long-term search
Tuesday September 1, 2009
French BEA Director Paul-Louis Arslanian said investigators have not determined the cause of the May 31 Air France A330-200 crash in the Atlantic Ocean and reiterated that there still is no evidence that speed sensors caused the accident.
"At the moment, we can't explain the accident," Arslanian told journalists yesterday in Paris. "We are making progress and will make progress and I'm optimistic, but this will take time. It takes a year-and-a-half, being responsible and reasonable, in order to make progress and ensure that we've run through all of the questions."
BEA will launch a new and "costly" search for plane debris and the flight data and voice recorders in the fall using sonar and undersea robots. "The area we must explore is practically equivalent to Switzerland," Arslanian said, noting that since the black boxes have stopped pinging, searching for the wreckage is "like crossing Switzerland with a flashlight."
BEA will require more funding, he said, with costs potentially reaching "several tens of millions of euros." He said Airbus has indicated it is prepared to participate to a significant degree and he hopes for a contribution from Air France KLM.
by ATWOnline Staff
Tuesday September 1, 2009
French BEA Director Paul-Louis Arslanian said investigators have not determined the cause of the May 31 Air France A330-200 crash in the Atlantic Ocean and reiterated that there still is no evidence that speed sensors caused the accident.
"At the moment, we can't explain the accident," Arslanian told journalists yesterday in Paris. "We are making progress and will make progress and I'm optimistic, but this will take time. It takes a year-and-a-half, being responsible and reasonable, in order to make progress and ensure that we've run through all of the questions."
BEA will launch a new and "costly" search for plane debris and the flight data and voice recorders in the fall using sonar and undersea robots. "The area we must explore is practically equivalent to Switzerland," Arslanian said, noting that since the black boxes have stopped pinging, searching for the wreckage is "like crossing Switzerland with a flashlight."
BEA will require more funding, he said, with costs potentially reaching "several tens of millions of euros." He said Airbus has indicated it is prepared to participate to a significant degree and he hopes for a contribution from Air France KLM.
by ATWOnline Staff
Airbus pensa a sistema alternativo alle scatole nere
Airbus sta lavorando con i suoi partner ed i suoi fornitori per rimpiazzare i registratori di volo degli aerei con un sistema in grado di trasmettere i dati via satellite ed in tempo reale, come attualmente si fa attualmente per le informazioni sulla manutenzione. Lo ha dichiarato il CEO del gruppo Thomas Enders in un’intervista al quotidiano francese "Le Parisien" facendo esplicito riferimento alla sciagura del volo Air France 447 perduto il 1° giugno sull’Atlantico.
Fonte: Dedalo News
Airbus sta lavorando con i suoi partner ed i suoi fornitori per rimpiazzare i registratori di volo degli aerei con un sistema in grado di trasmettere i dati via satellite ed in tempo reale, come attualmente si fa attualmente per le informazioni sulla manutenzione. Lo ha dichiarato il CEO del gruppo Thomas Enders in un’intervista al quotidiano francese "Le Parisien" facendo esplicito riferimento alla sciagura del volo Air France 447 perduto il 1° giugno sull’Atlantico.
Fonte: Dedalo News
volevo postare un whispering...ma forse è meglio di no, sono solo ipotesi senza possibilità di verifica.
...semplice spunto di riflessione alla luce del tempo trascorso, delle evidenze attualmente emerse e delle ipotesi e dichiarazioni ufficiose e semi/ufficiali.
...semplice spunto di riflessione alla luce del tempo trascorso, delle evidenze attualmente emerse e delle ipotesi e dichiarazioni ufficiose e semi/ufficiali.
Ultima modifica:
Se stessimo a riportare tutto il sentito dire avremmo 6,800,000,000 di ipotesi "io so cosa è successo" diverse, una per ogni abitante della terra.
C'è già il fantacalcio per dimostrare di saperla più lunga degli altri. Evitiamo di arrivare a giocare al fantadisastro.
C'è già il fantacalcio per dimostrare di saperla più lunga degli altri. Evitiamo di arrivare a giocare al fantadisastro.
Fonte: Times on Line
September 23, 2009
The four reasons why Air France 447 crashed
The disaster of Air France Flight 447 was the result of a preventable mix of human and technical failures, according to a London law firm that is representing families of the victims.
Stewarts Law, which is pressing claims for relatives of over 50 of the 228 dead, presented its argument in Paris today after its experts replicated in a simulator the conditions that were experienced by the crew of the Airbus A330 off Brazil on June 1.
Their findings reflect the consensus in the aviation industry -- and which we have covered here before -- over what went wrong in one of the most worrying air disasters in recent decades.
The official investigation, carried out by the French BEA accident bureau, is far from a conclusion and the black box flight recorders have not been found. Air France and Airbus are on the defensive and saying little. But enough data was transmitted by satellite from the stricken plane to identify with certainty four factors that led to the crash, said John Mahon, an Airbus and Boeing training captain.
-- The aircraft flew into an area of storms which other aircraft avoided by steering around them.
-- The pitot tubes (speed sensors on the front of the plane) suffered faults
-- There was a malfunction in the ADIRU, the three air data computers which feed information to the flight system and the pilots.
-- The pilots may not have had sufficient training to retain control of the malfunctioning aircraft.
"It any one of these issues had not happened to AF 447, the accident would not have happened," said Mahon, who is advising the law firm.
In the A330 simulator exercise, Mahon said pilots retained control of the handicapped aircraft, but they all knew that there was a malfunction. The pilots at the AF447 controls, who are thought to have been the two juniors on the three-man crew, would have been confused by conflicting information from the plane. They were also being thrown around in heavy turbulence at night. The simulator cannot replicate that faithfully any more than the fear that must quickly have gripped the crew.
James Healey-Pratt, the firm's chief aviation lawyer and also a pilot, said: "It is too simplistic to blame the pilots. They are not here to defend themselves. They did the best job they could."
Mahon said the pilots would have lost control of their handicapped plane in one of two situations.
If they entered a climb, the instruments would have erroneously shown increasing speed -- because of the blocked sensors. They would have tried to slow down and that could have led to a low-speed stall. If they were descending, the blocked sensors would have interpreted a decrease in speed. To compensate, the pilots would have increased the descent or added thrust. That could have caused the aircraft to over-speed and lose control.
Since the crash, Air France has signalled concern over its crew's ability to handle high altitude upsets of this kind. It has ordered special training for A330 pilots and called in outside experts to conduct a full-scale audit on its safety procedures. Some Air France pilots are accusing the airline, Airbus and the accident investigators of trying to put all the blame on the crew.
A separate judicial investigation is under way in France. Air France and Airbus will be asked to explain why no action was taken to replace faulty pitot tubes on the A330 series although they had suffered multiple failures over a decade.
The law firm, which has its own priorities, accused Air France of trying to settle with victims families "quickly, cheaply and quietly" in order to avoid having to pay the large sums that they deserved. Healey-Pratt estimated that if settled under European law, the final bill for Air France and Airbus would by about 450 million euros. He suggested that the two companies put one billion euros into a pot to be divided among the families. A similar method was used to avoid litigation after the 9/11 attacks in New York in 2001.
The saga over faulty the pitot tubes continues. The European Aviation Safety Agency today issued a new safety warning. It told airlines to check Airbus sensors from the US Goodrich company. Only two months ago, the same agency ordered airlines to install the Goodrich pitots instead of the ones made by the French company Thales which were the ones involved in all the incidents.
It's worth noting that Captain Mahon - who trains pilots in both Airbus and Boeings -- told me that he does not share the misgivings that some pilots have over the very automated flight systems of the Airbus family. He also pointed out that pitot and air data failures have caused accidents on Boeings in the past.
For an alternative view of AF447 and the plane that some pilots call the Scarebus, I would point you to the latest from John T. Halliday [no relation of our Johnny the rock idol] the well-informed expert on Huffington Post
Posted by Charles Bremner on September 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM in
September 23, 2009
The four reasons why Air France 447 crashed
The disaster of Air France Flight 447 was the result of a preventable mix of human and technical failures, according to a London law firm that is representing families of the victims.
Stewarts Law, which is pressing claims for relatives of over 50 of the 228 dead, presented its argument in Paris today after its experts replicated in a simulator the conditions that were experienced by the crew of the Airbus A330 off Brazil on June 1.
Their findings reflect the consensus in the aviation industry -- and which we have covered here before -- over what went wrong in one of the most worrying air disasters in recent decades.
The official investigation, carried out by the French BEA accident bureau, is far from a conclusion and the black box flight recorders have not been found. Air France and Airbus are on the defensive and saying little. But enough data was transmitted by satellite from the stricken plane to identify with certainty four factors that led to the crash, said John Mahon, an Airbus and Boeing training captain.
-- The aircraft flew into an area of storms which other aircraft avoided by steering around them.
-- The pitot tubes (speed sensors on the front of the plane) suffered faults
-- There was a malfunction in the ADIRU, the three air data computers which feed information to the flight system and the pilots.
-- The pilots may not have had sufficient training to retain control of the malfunctioning aircraft.
"It any one of these issues had not happened to AF 447, the accident would not have happened," said Mahon, who is advising the law firm.
In the A330 simulator exercise, Mahon said pilots retained control of the handicapped aircraft, but they all knew that there was a malfunction. The pilots at the AF447 controls, who are thought to have been the two juniors on the three-man crew, would have been confused by conflicting information from the plane. They were also being thrown around in heavy turbulence at night. The simulator cannot replicate that faithfully any more than the fear that must quickly have gripped the crew.
James Healey-Pratt, the firm's chief aviation lawyer and also a pilot, said: "It is too simplistic to blame the pilots. They are not here to defend themselves. They did the best job they could."
Mahon said the pilots would have lost control of their handicapped plane in one of two situations.
If they entered a climb, the instruments would have erroneously shown increasing speed -- because of the blocked sensors. They would have tried to slow down and that could have led to a low-speed stall. If they were descending, the blocked sensors would have interpreted a decrease in speed. To compensate, the pilots would have increased the descent or added thrust. That could have caused the aircraft to over-speed and lose control.
Since the crash, Air France has signalled concern over its crew's ability to handle high altitude upsets of this kind. It has ordered special training for A330 pilots and called in outside experts to conduct a full-scale audit on its safety procedures. Some Air France pilots are accusing the airline, Airbus and the accident investigators of trying to put all the blame on the crew.
A separate judicial investigation is under way in France. Air France and Airbus will be asked to explain why no action was taken to replace faulty pitot tubes on the A330 series although they had suffered multiple failures over a decade.
The law firm, which has its own priorities, accused Air France of trying to settle with victims families "quickly, cheaply and quietly" in order to avoid having to pay the large sums that they deserved. Healey-Pratt estimated that if settled under European law, the final bill for Air France and Airbus would by about 450 million euros. He suggested that the two companies put one billion euros into a pot to be divided among the families. A similar method was used to avoid litigation after the 9/11 attacks in New York in 2001.
The saga over faulty the pitot tubes continues. The European Aviation Safety Agency today issued a new safety warning. It told airlines to check Airbus sensors from the US Goodrich company. Only two months ago, the same agency ordered airlines to install the Goodrich pitots instead of the ones made by the French company Thales which were the ones involved in all the incidents.
It's worth noting that Captain Mahon - who trains pilots in both Airbus and Boeings -- told me that he does not share the misgivings that some pilots have over the very automated flight systems of the Airbus family. He also pointed out that pitot and air data failures have caused accidents on Boeings in the past.
For an alternative view of AF447 and the plane that some pilots call the Scarebus, I would point you to the latest from John T. Halliday [no relation of our Johnny the rock idol] the well-informed expert on Huffington Post
Posted by Charles Bremner on September 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM in
Stewarts Law nell'ambiente sono considerati peggio di spazzatura. In inglese li chiamano "ambulance chasers", come quegli avvocati da 4 soldi che si piazzano nei pronto soccorso e suggeriscono ai pazienti di fare causa all'ospedale per ottenere soldi.
Per quanto riguarda il rapporto, danno per scontato e speculano su fatti dei quali nessuno è a conoscenza, tipo che ai comandi fossero i copiloti e non il comandante (cosa che in ogni caso sarebbe legale, visto che ci sono 3 piloti proprio per permettere ad ognuno a rotazione di riposarsi), oppure che non abbiano deviato per evitare le turbolenze. Sembra appurato invece che le ultime tracce fossero qualche NM fuori dalla rotta, il che starebbe ad indicare che stavano deviando.
In poche parole, ingannano il lettore facendo credere di essere in possesso di informazioni che non hanno e non possono avere visto che nessuno le ha. Fanno solo delle ipotesi su possibili scenari che non possono essere né confermati né smentiti, e che guarda caso portano acqua al loro mulino.
Insomma, niente che non ci si potrebbe aspettare da gente senza scrupoli che venderebbe la madre per fare cassa, ma sicuramente non attendibile.
Per quanto riguarda il rapporto, danno per scontato e speculano su fatti dei quali nessuno è a conoscenza, tipo che ai comandi fossero i copiloti e non il comandante (cosa che in ogni caso sarebbe legale, visto che ci sono 3 piloti proprio per permettere ad ognuno a rotazione di riposarsi), oppure che non abbiano deviato per evitare le turbolenze. Sembra appurato invece che le ultime tracce fossero qualche NM fuori dalla rotta, il che starebbe ad indicare che stavano deviando.
In poche parole, ingannano il lettore facendo credere di essere in possesso di informazioni che non hanno e non possono avere visto che nessuno le ha. Fanno solo delle ipotesi su possibili scenari che non possono essere né confermati né smentiti, e che guarda caso portano acqua al loro mulino.
Insomma, niente che non ci si potrebbe aspettare da gente senza scrupoli che venderebbe la madre per fare cassa, ma sicuramente non attendibile.